What’s for supper? Vol. 372: MEATSTER

17 thoughts on “What’s for supper? Vol. 372: MEATSTER”

1. Pingback: What’s for supper? Vol. 373: Little lamb, who ate thee? – SIMCHA FISHER

2. Simcha, I love your meal roundups. But as a practicing Jew myself, I am surprised and dismayed to see that your Catholic family celebrates Passover.

   Passover is a Jewish holiday which celebrates the covenant of G-d and the Jewish people — and it certainly isn’t a “precursor” to Easter, any more than Judaism is a “precursor” to Christianity! These are separate holidays from separate religious traditions.

   Though Christianity has its roots in Judaism, we diverge on one crucial point: the Messiah. Jews do not believe He has arrived yet, but eagerly await him! Christians believe he was Jesus, and Easter celebrates his second coming (as I understand).

   So Passover is about the relationship between Jews and our G-d, and Easter is about Christians and your relationship with your G-d. Neither are secular — that would be an absurd idea! — and neither should be practiced outside of their religious traditions. Passover has nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus has nothing to do with Passover — and to say otherwise does harm to practicing Jews, a religious minority who have historically been violently persecuted by the Catholic Church .

   This article phrases my objections better than I can:

   https://religiondispatches.org/why-christians-should-not-host-their-own-passover-seders/

   “3,500 years of persecution, much of it by Christians, is not negated by the relative freedom from discrimination that Jews in America have experienced in recent decades. The horrific fear that so many Jewish people have felt cannot be understated. From Easter traditions that involved hunting down Jews to pogroms to ghettos to the Spanish Inquisition to the Holocaust, history is rife with this violent legacy.

   Christians mounting their own reading of the Haggadah almost always want to discuss how Jesus is like the paschal lamb, using the occasion to show how all the Hebrew scriptures point to Jesus as fulfilling the prophecies. This theological exercise, known as supersessionism, is problematic enough in a purely Christian context, but as part of a Jewish ritual it is deeply out of place.”

   Here is another good article about why Christians celebrating Passover is cultural appropriation:

   https://forward.com/fast-forward/542273/christians-passover-seders-bishop-is-telling-them-to-stop/

   This is regardless of whether or not you consider yourself and your children ethnically Jewish. You are not religiously Jewish! It is as inappropriate (and theologically nonsensical!) for practicing Christians to celebrate Passover as it would be for a Catholic-born Jewish convert to take Communion. And to graft the magen david onto an Easter egg…that to me is as offensive as seeing Satanists use a statue of Mary or a crucifix in a black mass would be to you.

   I so enjoy so much of your content. We are both trying to raise faithful children in our religious traditions. But let’s respect the differences between those traditions! Let’s not strip those traditions of their religious meaning! I think we can both agree that tradition matters.

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   1. Other than being a fan of Simcha’s, I don’t really have a dog in this fight. I read the two links you posted and don’t see how they apply here. This is not a case of Simcha putting on Jewishface and pretending to be Jewish. Born of a Jewish mother, Simcha IS Jewish.

      Serious question: I have many Jewish friends, family, and acquaintances. Lots of them are atheists and agnostics. Should they also exempt themselves from observing Passover if Passover is meant only for religious Jews?

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      1. Simcha is a Catholic of Jewish descent, both of whose parents converted to Catholicism. She may be ethnically Jewish, but she was not raised Jewish and has not raised her children Jewish. As far as the Jewish community is concerned, both Simcha and her children are lost to the Jewish people.

         That’s what conversion means! That’s why the Catholic Church has historically made conversion part of its mission of genocide against the Jewish people!

         Well, we don’t even have to talk about history: if a person was raised Catholic and converted to Judaism but decided (for some reason) to have a “secular” Easter holiday which involved burying statues of Saint Joseph in the dirt for children to dig up…devout Catholics would probably find that sacrilegious! They’d say that this person was appropriating sacred elements of their faith and desecrating them…and they’d be right!

         To your question:

         There is a difference to be made here between a Jew *without* a strong religious belief and a person of Jewish descent with a strong belief in the Christian religion! I have hosted Passover seders attended by nonobservant family members and friends who still actively participate in Jewish life. Because of the unique history of Judaism, these religious celebrations are part of what defines us as a community — which is why it is so important they not be taken out of their uniquely Jewish context!

         And given the history I mentioned earlier, it is especially important that these traditions not be taken out of their uniquely Jewish context and transposed into the context of a religion which spent hundreds of years trying to wipe us off the map.

         You might say Catholics like Simcha aren’t trying to wipe anyone off the map. Perhaps that’s true! But “evangelizing” is still part of the Catholic mission, as I understand it. It seems to me that Christians who want people to “accept” this evangelization only consider what they think we poor souls have to gain — “eternal life in heaven!” — rather than all we have to lose. And all we have already lost, and all we might lose in the future.

         I guess what I’m trying to say is that conversion is about loss. You gain a new religion, yes, and a new religious community with new traditions and practices, and I’m sure Simcha would say that gaining Jesus has been wonderful! But you also lose your old religion, and your old religious community, and your old traditions and practices. The act of conversion is a tradeoff — and those who make it clearly believe that the gain is worth the loss!

         But my faith is not an a la carte buffet. From what I’ve read of Simcha’s (beautiful!) writing about her faith, I think she’d say the same — which is why this post shocked and dismayed me as much as it did! To continue the food metaphor (a passion I share with Simcha) you can’t have your cake and eat it too…even if it’s unleavened.

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         1. Thank you for your thoughtful response. I understand your position better now.

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         2. Listen, I hear what you are saying. I really do. I remember my grandfather dreaming that my mother took him to a Catholic church and, instead of crosses, there were swastikas. My own family bears the scars of this history and this incongruity. But I would like you to think hard about what you are asking of me. You are saying that I must cut myself off from . . . all of my ancestors. All of my family traditions. My most precious and meaningful childhood memories. And I must still suffer hatred and attacks from people who despise Jews, without the solace of any of the sweetness of the brotherhood of my indisputable heritage.

            You say “this is what it means to convert.” And yes, I would give it all up if that’s what it took to be a Christian. But I am not convinced that this is necessary. I wish I had phrased my explanation of what we do more sensitively, but it sounds like you don’t just want me to stop talking about it in public; you want me to stop thinking of myself as a Jew.

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            1. Thank you for your reply, Simcha!

               You are assuming a lot of me here. You say *I* am asking you to cut yourself off from your ancestors and traditions — but I am simply pointing out that this is what conversion means! You leave one religious community and enter another by adopting their beliefs and practices. And yes, it is tragic to be cut off from the community you would otherwise have belonged to! I think of Richard di Niro’s Shylock at the end of “Merchant of Venice,” watching as the gates of the Jewish Quarter are closed to him…this is why so many Jews see conversion as a tragedy! This is the loss I am talking about — the loss that counterbalances the gain.

               And I have to say, Simcha, it seems you are holding my beliefs to a different standard than your own. I very much doubt you would move your celebration of Easter to accommodate Passover — or decorate a crucifix with Wiccan symbols, or let one of your children bring the host home to spread with brie and enjoy as a snack. You have written so movingly about how sacred Catholic symbols and practices are to you — I think about your blog entry “He is not safe with me.” Yet you are willing to take Jewish symbols and practices out of their sacred context — and when I, a Jew, objects, you say I am telling you not to talk about your Jewish heritage or even think of yourself as a Jew! Which doesn’t actually address your actions or the reason I object to them. Why aren’t my faith practices accorded the respect with which you treat (and would want others to treat) your own?

               You’re happy to celebrate Passover totally out of synch with the Jewish calendar, because the Christian calendar takes precedence — and this makes sense, because you are a Christian. But what then does it mean to be a Jew? I remember Tevye: how far can we bend before we break? Your children are baptized, not bat or bar mitzvah’d. A person seeking to understand Jewish life and culture would gain no insight by observing how you live and worship. If your children wanted to rejoin the Jewish people, they would need to undergo conversion — they would not otherwise have sufficient understanding of our beliefs and practices. You and your household are dedicated to the Christian god, the Christian faith, and you are active in your Christian community. You read Christian books and write Christian articles for Christian publications.

               Where is the sweetness of Jewish brotherhood present in your life? Through engaging with practicing Jews and following Jewish law and custom? Or through engaging with your children and family members, all of them Christians of Jewish heritage, and adapting here and there the elements of Jewish practice that fit your Christian lifestyle?

               I believe that you have taught Catholic classes. Say a student came to you and told you that they were born and raised Catholic and still consider themselves such, but have also chosen to observe the rites and practices of, say, Norse Paganism. They pray and make sacrifices to Loki and Thor, and to participate in fertility rituals which involve sex outside of marriage and the use of contraception. You would probably tell them that regardless of whether or not they think of themselves as Catholic, they are not *acting* like a Catholic — that these practices are incompatible with living a Catholic life, being a member of the Catholic community, and being recognized by others as a Catholic. Indeed, if these practices *were* accepted as compatible with Catholicism, the category of “Catholic” would cease to have a coherent meaning; it would become severed from its historic definition.

               As someone who cares so much about the Catholic faith, you would probably see this as a tragedy! You would probably encourage this person to stop engaging in practices which violate the tradition of which they claim to be a part — or, if they really are that committed to Norse Paganism, to at least consider the possibility that this means they are no longer a Catholic, and what life without that identity might mean for them.

               I hope we can both agree that regardless of your heritage, Christianity and Norse Paganism are theologically incompatible — and so too are Christianity and Judaism.

               You say that I want you to stop thinking of yourself as a Jew. Not so. I want you to understand that Jewish traditions and practices are of as much sacred importance to Jews who have not converted as your Catholic traditions and practices are to you. I urge you to reflect on why you feel comfortable treating those traditions and practices with less respect than you would want others to treat those traditions and practices from your own faith — and why a Jew speaking up about their discomfort elicits such a strong response.

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               1. Ok. But aren’t atheists converts as well? You’ve basically given Jewish atheists a pass.

                  There most certainly is theological overlap between Christianity and Judaism. Both hold the Pentateuch sacred. Furthermore, large swaths of the New Testament are devoted to whether or not non-Jews can even be Christian.

                  I think you might be shocked at the spectrum of Catholics. There are many people whose practices and beliefs are abhorrent to those of us who follow the Catechism.

                  Another question for you: how do you feel about all the kids in my area making dreidels and singing Chanukah songs in school or at Scouts? There’s a Star (of David? Or is it Bethlehem?) that hangs on our Christmas tree. One of my boys made it in preschool out of yellow popsicle sticks and blue glitter. Honestly it never occurred to me that some might find it offensive. No Jews who’ve seen it have ever remarked negatively to me on it but I sense you wouldn’t like it.

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                  1. Atheists are not converts for the simple reason that they have not left Judaism for a conflicting belief system. There is room in Judaism for questioning G-d. This is actually a surprisingly good Wikipedia entry on the subject!

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism#:~:text=Jewish%20atheism%20refers%20to%20the,also%20ethnic%20and%20cultural%20ones.

                     There is certainly theological overlap between Judaism and Christianity — and between Christianity and Judaism and Islam, and indeed between Christianity and Hinduism and Buddhism…I could go on! But no one would argue that Christianity and Islam are functionally the same religion. Overlap is not redundancy. The differences matter!

                     And you are right: I find it incredibly offensive that you have a Star of David on your Christmas tree. I had no idea that Catholics felt so entitled to our sacred symbols — symbols they have historically tried to extinguish, along with the Jewish people!

                     Simcha wrote a blog post once about seeing the statue of Mary in a New Age store along with crystals and ouija boards — with the implication being that it is troubling for such a religiously significant figure to be in such company. I expect many Christians would feel the same if they saw a crucifix on a Satanist or a Wiccan altar!

                     The only difference here is that Christians have been the dominant religious and political power in the West for a thousand years, while Jews have been a religious minority under constant threat of extinction by Christians — making this modern-day appropriation all the more painful.

                     Would you find it appropriate for your son’s Scout troop to sing songs of praise to Allah? Would you put a Jainist symbol on your Christmas tree? Or would that seem inappropriate? I suspect it would.

                     I ask again: why do Christians feel entitled to take the symbols and practices of my faith out of their religious context and put them into the context of a religion that tried to wipe us off the map? What motivates this desire to de-Judaize our culture? Could it perhaps be a modern-day manifestation of a far older and more sinister attitude toward the Jewish people?

                     Please understand: I am not accusing anyone of being a “bad person!” I simply cannot understand why a Jew pointing out that a Christian has done something offensive would result in such pushback and defensiveness. When people from historically oppressed groups speak up, please, have the grace to listen.

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                     1. And I also want to add that I don’t endorse Catholics or Christians with no Jewish heritage partaking in Jewish customs or holidays on their own. This is also something I have written about. Every once in a while, a priest will ask me if it would be appropriate for them to have some kind of Passover remembrance at their parish, and I tell them it would not.

                        It’s interesting about the kids doing songs and crafts for various holidays of religions that they don’t share. I’m sure this varies by region, but in my area, the schools tend to overcompensate for the Christian majority that you describe, and what almost always happens is that we have, for instance, a “holiday concert” in December, and the kids WILL sing Hanukkah songs and perhaps Kwanzaa songs, they do not sing any Christmas songs, but only winter or “holiday” ones, focusing on family and jolliness and whatnot. I understand why this happened, but it amuses me. People give each other Christmas presents, but they refuse to say why they’re doing it, because it’s a public school; but then they learn about Eid and Diwali. The lesson I draw from this is that Americans are extremely confused about religion, and when you come across someone who at least means well and has the intention to be respectful, you shouldn’t yell at them.

                     2. Just to clarify – my son was in a non-sectarian preschool at the time and he was just making the craft of the day. He came home from school and hung it on the tree with all the other ornaments they’ve made. Not sure if the teacher intended a Star of David or those were just the colors my son picked. It could easily be the Star of Bethlehem. He was 3 at the time. But I assure you if my son had come home with a crescent moon symbol on a string, it’d be on the tree.

                        Over the years and at various preschools, all my kids have made dreidels – a fun craft that didn’t hold religious significance for them, but still builds bridges to another faith tradition. If we’d have had a bunch of Muslims (or even one) in our Cub scout troop (we didn’t) and they wanted to sing fun children’s songs of praise to Allah at the nursing home, I certainly wouldn’t object to it. The point is to include everybody, right? Several of my kids have done the Holi color runs with their Hindu friends. I wouldn’t have dreamed of not inviting my Jewish nieces and nephews from our family’s Easter Egg hunt (They always came). We live in a multicultural society. Isn’t it good that the children should carry forth positive feelings about faiths and traditions not their own?

                        Do you object to gentiles having any level of participation in Jewish rituals and celebrations? In my NYC/Philadelphia experience, when we attend Jewish life events, my husband and sons are expected to don the kippahs that are always in a basket at the entrance. We’ll shout, “Mazel Tov!” at the appointed times. And at receptions, my athletic sons have several times been chair hoisters during the horah, usually at the request of their Jewish hosts. Likewise, our Jewish and other non Catholic friends and family stand and sit at the appropriate times during Masses. They smile and wave and sometimes even shake hands at the Kiss of Peace. (Kneeling would understandably be a bridge too far). Would you object to these sorts of behavior too or is it ok because we (and they) have been invited to participate?

                        I really do appreciate your answers. Thanks!

               2. Actually, it’s not really true that I would see it as a “tragedy” for someone to retain and attempt to engage in Catholic practices while no longer behaving as a Catholic. I even wrote about the experience of seeing a statue of Mary jumbled in among miscellaneous pagan paraphernalia, and my ultimate conclusion was that Mary can take care of herself, and that some pagan who encounters the statue and takes it home might actually find it a conduit of grace in their life. As a separate incicent, just recently, I talked to someone who has left the Church but still likes Our Lady of Guadalupe, for whatever reason, and even tells other people about her. So you are mistaken there. It is true that I would be upset to see someone treating the Eucharist carelessly or thoughtlessly, but we understand a consecrated Host to be actually God. So there are special rules for that! But when it comes to non-Catholics borrowing Catholic practices and imagery, which is EXTREMELY common, I generally approach it with two ideas: One, that when someone is doing it with good intentions and respect, I cannot be mad about it; and two, that these are things that have been given to us *by God,* and I trust that God will use them to his purposes one way or another, whether I personally witness it or not.

                  That being said, the example you give is not actually a good parallel because a Norse religion has nothing to do with Catholicism. They are incongruous by any standard. I understand that *you* do not consider Catholicism to be congruent with Judaism in any way, but this conversation will not make any sense unless we acknowledge that I do consider it congruent. Everything in the Passover seder is something that I, as a Catholic, can say and affirm with a clear conscience. The book *Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist* is a scholarly work that outlines exactly how Catholic theology began in Jewish theology. I understand that, to you, this is nonsense at best and offensive, but it’s not as if I’m making it up. My Catholic faith has its roots in Judaism.

                  You ask: “Where is the sweetness of Jewish brotherhood present in your life? Through engaging with practicing Jews and following Jewish law and custom? Or through engaging with your children and family members, all of them Christians of Jewish heritage, and adapting here and there the elements of Jewish practice that fit your Christian lifestyle?” You are again mistaken. I have had many extended cordial and heartfelt conversations with practicing Jews, including Rabbi Josh Yuter. I live in NH where there is not a large Jewish population, so I pretty frequently have experiences like buying a toy at a toy store, and the owner, Mr. Levy, saw my name on my debit card and smiled very warmly and spoke to me in Hebrew. Or the other day, when I was buying matzoh meal and had a question about the gluten free variety, I chatted with another woman who was also shopping in the Jewish section, and her face looked like she could have been a relative. I was at a school concert and the kids unexpectedly played Hatikvah, and I started to cry, because I suddenly remembered how my mother, who was dying, used to sing it to me when I was falling asleep. And there have been numerous occasions, in the last few months, when I’ve had to explain to people why, no, being mad at the Israeli government doesn’t give you a reason to boycott Jewish delis or harass Jewish students. So no, I don’t only feel fellowship with the Jewish people filtered through the lens of Catholics.

                  I will say that I have had more and more qualms, as the years go on, about celebrating Passover on a different day, and before you left your comment, I was already considering changing that practice, because it didn’t feel right. But as I said, the practice of the seder itself is something that my parents gave to me as part of my faith. Everyone in my family is gone. My yiddish-speaking grandparents died long ago, my father died, my mother died, all my great aunts and uncles are dead. Most of my siblings do not make a point of retaining any Jewish practices. I hope and pray that my children will find their Jewish heritage as meaningful as I do, and will keep it alive, because we need more Jews in the world.

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                  1. I didn’t see your comment until after I published mine. It’s funny that we referenced the same essay about the Mary statue, but drew different conclusions from it! I kinda feel like, since it was my essay about my experience, my conclusion is probably the definitive one, haha

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3. The Bat cake is great – I think your household has more than its fair share of talent and imagination! I can’t imagine trying to sew an egg but I think those spin eggs are something I could do – I just dyed mine plain green, as I’m the only one who eats them and I was tired from singing in the choir at our Easter Vigil, which unfortunately wasn’t too long as we had no baptisms this year and only did three of the readings. My sister used to save chicken livers in the freezer to make chopped chicken liver and my brother-in-law used to make fried matzoh – he also introduced me to Joyvah halvah, which I thought was fabulous. The gefilte fish always looked like a lab specimen floating in the jar on the supermarket shelf – not sure what you could do to make it look better, but if anyone could do it, you could! Happy Meatster to you, too! We ate fried rice with HAM tonight – earthquake, meat on Friday…what’s next?!? How about an eclipse?!?

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4. The areyes sounds like a really neat idea. I didn’t expect the meat to be cooked inside the pita. And that is the best Batman cake ever! If it isn’t Adam West, it isn’t Batman.

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5. Boxed potatoes are a lifesaver. Bobs red mill is amazing and this French version is another level: https://www.amazon.com/Maggi-Mousline-Puree-French-Instant/dp/B00DGYOHTC/ref=asc_df_B00DGYOHTC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=647248949506&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14151542825663771872&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9067609&hvtargid=pla-1996642084543&psc=1&mcid=a3561d62fd603d569f528cd0742ac10a

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6. Happy Birthday Irene! I love that Batman cake. I was looking at it, looking at it, looking at it, trying to locate the bat shark repellant and I couldn’t find it, but you did not disappoint! Just awesome, all the way around.

   We had an earthquake here this morning, and we’re all a little freaked out. It’s comforting to know that at least someone still remembers what’s important in this world.

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